For friends, comrades, lumpen fellow cage-dwellers and shit like that…
by Shuggy, 17 April 2008
Now, I haven’t really followed the ding-dong between Marko Attila Hoare and my esteemed comrade and fellow Trots blogger Peter Ryley along with a few others but I would say that on catching the tail end of this, it isn’t difficult to decide whose side you are on:
“While I indeed appreciate and respect several of these contributors, the overall tone of the blog is defined by the hatred, poison and negativity spewed copiously by the lumpen, semi-literate ’Will’ and by one or two others.”
I take great offence at the word ‘lumpen’ being used as a term of abuse. Not personally, you understand - I’m more downwardly-mobile middle-class white trash myself. But in my unrelenting downward trajectory, amongst the most intelligent, gorgeous, freedom-loving people I have ever met have belonged to that class dismissed as ‘lumpen’, ‘underclass’, ‘unemployable’ - and other Victorian shit of that nature. If I’m ever foolish enough to get married again, I’ll be having a member of this small but resilient social group as my best man. If I can put it like that, you might just be able to catch the music of what I’m saying - you fucking snob.
And it is Whiggish, Victorian bullshit we have to contend with from ‘comrade’ Marko. Those who declare the old divisions of left and right to be redundant are invariably former leftists and liberals who can’t quite bring themselves to acknowledge that they’ve lost the faith of their youth and have moved to the right. He takes it further and produces a dichotomy that puts Pro-Western and Anti-Western as the principal ideological division of this age. One of my friends at DSTPFW rightly identified more than a whiff of Fukuyama in what he was saying. Accurate and appropriate, yet in some ways too generous in imputing to our protagonist subtlety of thought he does not possess. For he strikes me as one who belongs to that ancient tribe: those who thought change via humanistic improvement was impossible; then it came along and they accepted it, all the while pretending that they hadn’t and simultaneously insisting that no significant future progress was either possible or desirable. A Tory, in other words. And a sensitive Tory at that:
“Not to mention the unending stream of vulgarity and abuse which any civilised person must find disgusting…”
Oh, sweetie! I feel so badly for you - to be introduced to how people in places like Glasgow and Newcastle actually talk. You know, like real people, majority people, common people, unwashed, uneducated and uncouth people. The kind of people who, if you were honest with yourself, you’d admit you despise. How traumatic and ghastly this must be for you. ‘Burkes’ at home? Unkind, unfair, unjust - to Burke, that is…
Thursday 17 April 2008 at 22:36
Nothing wrong with the term underclass…as long as it’s applied to the underclass.
It’s not a synonym for “signs on” or “wears trainers” or whatever.
I doubt your best man will in any way resemble Joey Barton’s brother..
Thursday 17 April 2008 at 22:42
Who the fuck’s Joey Barton?
Thursday 17 April 2008 at 22:45
The underclass are only those who are working class without employment. It is also a stupid and ignorant Yank import first coined by a complete fucking retard.
Thursday 17 April 2008 at 22:45
He’s a famous footballer* O man of the people.
His brother is an equally famous underclass racist murderer.
*Football: Sporting endeavour popular amongst the hoi polloi.
Thursday 17 April 2008 at 22:47
Who the fuck’s Joey Barton?
I believe Shuggy was attempting to needle Will.
Thursday 17 April 2008 at 22:47
“The underclass are only those who are working class without employment.”
Wrong.
The Jarrow marchers were in no way similar to Jeremy Kyle fodder.
Thursday 17 April 2008 at 22:49
“I believe Shuggy was attempting to needle Will.”
Ah yeah, Fair play. :o)
Thursday 17 April 2008 at 22:54
I believe Shuggy was attempting to needle Will.
No, not at all - I really had no fucking idea who Joey Barton was. Don’t talk to me about football. We don’t do football up here: we do nationalism without guns. It has its merits but I take little to no interest in it - apart from a little residual sectarianism, which I try to conceal as consistently as possible.
Thursday 17 April 2008 at 22:55
I take it all back. Given what Hoare has to say about Britain, maybe it’s a good thing that the Eustonians concentrate on foreign affairs where they can do less damage. I reckon we should send Hoare to Zimbabwe. He’ll show ‘em what’s what, what?
Thursday 17 April 2008 at 23:07
[what a cunt. unworthy of these fine comment boxes and shit]
Thursday 17 April 2008 at 23:14
Why not just lighten up a bit not take every dispute as if someone is questioning the size of your willy?
Who is this comment directed at? I have to say in the years I’ve been doing this I can safely say that I’ve never once taken a disagreeable comment as an allusion to the size of my willy. Why would anyone do this?
Thursday 17 April 2008 at 23:21
“Why would anyone do this?”
All cyber dissent is essentially knob-based.
Face it, he’s dissing your cock.
Thursday 17 April 2008 at 23:46
Face it, he’s dissing your cock.
Ok, I’m fairly stoned now and this thread has gone slightly off topic but do you really think this is what they are doing? How do you know this? Is this what people like dsquared are doing? Because that is a fucking disturbing thought right there. I reiterate: why would they do this? I’ve seen their photos - we ain’t competing in the same market…
Thursday 17 April 2008 at 23:50
They’re not really mate.
I’m just pissing about.
Go on, show us the photos. :o)
Thursday 17 April 2008 at 23:54
It would be interesting to see who Marx and Engels would consider make-up the modern-day version of the lumpenproletariat these days.
Thursday 17 April 2008 at 23:54
Go on, show us the photos. :o)
Victorious capitalism decrees: you gotta pay for that kinda shit…
Friday 18 April 2008 at 0:47
No — you are wrong — lawwd help me for taking this thread off topic and that but I Set The Fucking Tone Here!
Friday 18 April 2008 at 0:51
Stupidest HP post of all time? (Becoming difficult to distinguish I know)
http://hurryupharry.bloghouse.net/archives/2008/04/17/mean_streets.php
Friday 18 April 2008 at 0:58
Anyway — if we are all middle class now, then why the fuck can”t we all just get along?
Anyone who answers that question will get a shot to the balls or fanny.
it’s me who sets the tone here and don’t you forget it.
Friday 18 April 2008 at 1:16
“No — you are wrong — lawwd help me for taking this thread off topic and that but I Set The Fucking Tone Here!”
Fair enough, I’m happy calling them lumpen, as long as they can be distinguished from the working class, employed or otherwise, upon whom they habitually prey.
nb. I might have the wrong end of the stick here, the intricacies of Marxist theory make my brane hurt.
Friday 18 April 2008 at 1:27
You don’t have the wrong end — just agree with me and you will be OK Scratchmeister.
Friday 18 April 2008 at 1:28
‘Tis done. :o)
Friday 18 April 2008 at 1:35
Love all round then.
love it when that happens.
Scratch =
XXX
I refrain from saying My prison bum chum but it seems we are that none-the-less.
Come here you lovely little fella. give uss a kiz
X
Friday 18 April 2008 at 1:37
Remember — I set the tone.
Friday 18 April 2008 at 1:38
*Shudders*
Friday 18 April 2008 at 1:42
Coward.
Friday 18 April 2008 at 1:47
It has to be said that there are plenty of people from the centre-left leftwards (including myself) who feel that Hoare is engaging in what is basically unintellectual snobbery on a regular basis these days. I used to quite like him because of his sensible stuff on the Balkans.
The idea that poverty is not relevant to an understanding of why social problems exist is pretty much Daily Mail fodder. I doubt he realises quite how cuntish he sounds to others. And that is no more and no less than his own blinkered fault.
Friday 18 April 2008 at 1:52
“Coward.”
I’m still waiting for Shuggys photos.
An uninformed decision is invariably unwise.
Friday 18 April 2008 at 2:01
HP eh? What a load of old cock.
MAH is well off line.
Been saying this for time.
No class analysis = no analysis.
His photo alone is worthy of the Sunny Hundal instant smackdown award.
Friday 18 April 2008 at 2:15
To be fair, comrade, he’s well off line from HP thinking (in as far as a collective view exists) too.
I must say I am disappointed by excessive carrying of MAH as a “Your View” poster, however. It does no good to have any site associated with weird diagrams which purport to overturn a couple of centuries worth of political thought. I mean, you’ve got to be pretty hard-core sure of your own views to try that sort of stuff. And not in a good way.
As I say, I used to really like him. But it turns out he’s basically rubbish on most things other than the Balkans.
Friday 18 April 2008 at 9:17
But he’s a very clever man. He teaches at Cambridge University and he writes books.
Friday 18 April 2008 at 9:34
Joking aside, it is a discussion that needs to be undertaken. Lots of people worked themselves into a state of exhaustion campaigning for Zimbabwe’s independence and ten years down teh line it’s a bloody mess. The last couple of years has underlined for me the importance of ‘the rule of law’ against teh arbitary nature of many non-urbanised cultures. The problem is that a)you can’t inflict alien systems of thought and law on unwilling people and b)it shouldn’t necessarily entail imperialism grabbing all a country’s natural resources.
Friday 18 April 2008 at 10:51
“Sir Keith Joseph tells us that it is ‘attitudes’ that explain the ills of society. In fact to say of someone that he/she is lazy is to explain nothing. An attitude is always something that needs to be explained. From a working-class position it might be argued, however, that a critique of the attitudes of the ruling class is of some material significance.” - A&L.
Friday 18 April 2008 at 12:56
It’s all the dog’s fault for watching Big Brother and eating chips.
Friday 18 April 2008 at 12:59
Oops … wrong thread.
Friday 18 April 2008 at 13:11
Its funny how the most class conscious are frequently the ones who deny its existence.
Friday 18 April 2008 at 19:52
Hahahaha–the big clevva hintylecktual master is pretending he doesn’t know what a ‘meeja whore’ is. Mirror must be broken like.
Friday 18 April 2008 at 19:53
Absurd retarded little cunt and whore.
http://greatersurbiton.wordpress.com/2008/04/18/mea-culpa/
Friday 18 April 2008 at 20:20
MAH catches a fragment of conversation in Sauchiehall Street … 752 words later:
Friday 18 April 2008 at 20:26
I love the smell of bourgeois moralism in the morning.
Friday 18 April 2008 at 20:38
What a preposterous puffed up twit.
A mentally disabled person is properly called a ‘mentally disabled person’, Hoare is a ‘retard’. A sex-worker is a ’sex-worker’, Hoare is a ‘(meeja) whore’. A woman is a ‘woman’, Hoare is a—
Friday 18 April 2008 at 21:23
Doesn’t he realise that the people posting at this site are middleclass? Not as posh as him maybe, but certainly not horny-handed sons and daughters of toil? I mean, I wouldn’t be posting here if I thought it was full of common people who put the milk in first when they have a cup fo tea and call their lunch , dinner.
Friday 18 April 2008 at 21:34
“Doesn’t he realise that the people posting at this site are middleclass?”
That better be an attempt at irony. Otherwise you are banned from here for life.
Saturday 19 April 2008 at 19:33
Yah boo suck (cocks a snook)